The Hong Kong government’s proposed legislation to ban crypto trading for retail investors and require virtual asset service platforms (VASPs) to obtain licenses to operate has caused great concern among the territory’s crypto community. Fears are that Hong Kong might cede its position as a regional fintech hub to neighbors such as Singapore, or fall behind other centers in the U.K. or U.S., by unduly stopping retail investors from trading while allowing the wealthy to continue.
But Angelina Kwan, chief risk manager and COO of Hong Kong-based HashKey Group, sees it differently. This regulation would be a positive step for a maturing industry, allowing it to thrive in the territory, said Kwan, who once oversaw financial market regulation as the director of supervision of markets at the Securities and Futures Commission (SFC) of Hong Kong.
“This is a natural progression for a very, very new and exciting area,” said Kwan, in an interview with Forkast.News. “What you’re seeing is all the regulated companies now moving into the space. In the immortal words of [HashKey Group] founder Dr. Xiao (Feng), regulation is the only way to go and the only way to survive for new and emerging assets and adoption.”
The world looks to Hong Kong as a leader in fintech and crypto regulations, Kwan added, as the head of SFC, Ashley Alder, is also chair of the board of IOSCO (International Organization of Securities Commissions), an association that includes more than 30 member jurisdictions, including the United States, China, Singapore, Switzerland and Germany.
Earlier this month, Hong Kong-based OSL made its first trade as a fully licensed exchange in the region, holding both type 1 and type 7 licenses required for Virtual Asset Service Providers (VASP) to be fully compliant with the proposed legislation. The licenses allow VASPs to manage securities and digital assets, respectively. With Kwan at the helm, Hashkey is now striving to become the second fully licensed VASP in Hong Kong.
“The big investment banks around the world, the big hedge funds that are licensed, we will be able to work with them,” Kwan said. “We think this is super exciting and this is the biggest growth area.”
Kwan may be in a better position than most to guide HashKey through this process, having helped craft much of the existing regulatory framework during her eight years at the SFC. In order to become licensed, crypto firms will need to reconfigure their business to have more internal controls and management structures. This includes appointing at least two “responsible officers” who will assume personal responsibility of compliance, and all executive directors of a VASP will be required to be such officers.
According to Hong Kong’s proposed law, only “professional investors” with portfolios worth at least HK $8 million (US$1.03 million) will be eligible to be licensed, leading to concerns smaller retail traders would be locked out of Hong Kong’s cryptocurrency market. A recent South China Morning Post survey found that only 7% of Hong Kong’s population would meet the required threshold of being a professional investor.
It is on this professional class of investor that HashKey focuses, assisting them to move portfolios into digital assets. Kwan sees this increased regulation as a way to legitimize the industry, and says it does not close all avenues for cryptocurrency trading to retail investors.
“It’s not closed in terms of the license that we’re trying to get, and there are ways and means that people can trade, they can trade through regulated entities that are in the United States,” Kwan said. “You’re seeing other United States firms set up in Asia. It’s borderless in terms of our trading.”
So far as the concern about Hong Kong ceding its regional fintech hub status to Singapore, Kwan says the two have a symbiotic relationship that lifts them both up.
“Hong Kong has such a special place here with the hinterland of China,” Kwan said. “ And if we do well, Singapore does well. I think there’s so much sharing. Case in point in terms of the travel bubble we have forming between Singapore and Hong Kong.”
Following the explosive growth in decentralized finance (DeFi) last year, attention is turning to regulators around the world, especially the Securities and Exchanges Commission in the U.S., to see how they might react to the growing industry. While there are challenges inherent to attempting to regulate a decentralized space, Kwan says DeFi companies may soon face a choice that could pull them into the fold of regulation.
“If some of the DeFi companies do want to eventually get regulated and be able to serve the big funds that are regulated around the world, they’re going to have to start fitting in and looking to meet with regulators,” Kwan said “I think you’re going to see these DeFi companies either remain outside of regulation or they will actually submit to regulation. It will be the choice of those companies.”
In a white paper titled “Institutional Investors and Digital Assets” published this year, HashKey Group makes the case that cryptocurrencies are here to stay and any institutional investors who delay are missing out on an incredible opportunity. But for all the metrics about adoption rates and market cap, another test for the trajectory of digital assets may be conversations around the dinner table. Kwan says she is finding herself more and more often being asked her thoughts on Bitcoin and other assets over dinner with friends.
“I think the barometer when I sit down at a dinner table with people who are my peers, who work in these big firms, they’re all like ‘Angelina, this Bitcoin thing, tell me all about it!’ Three out of four conversations start that way,” Kwan said. “What’s my view on it? I think Bitcoin is here to stay.”
Watch Kwan’s full interview with Forkast.News Editor-in-Chief Angie Lau to learn more about what it takes to become a regulated VASP in Hong Kong, and why this former regulator who helped Hong Kong’s government write some of today’s laws think crypto regulation is much needed for the industry.
- Why look to Hong Kong for crypto regulations? “The SFC is a forerunner in that Ashley Alder, our CEO at the SFC, is the chairman of IOSCO (International Organization of Securities Commissions). Hong Kong is a leader in terms of whatever it does, it’s going to shape the entire securities industry around the world because he is the chairman of the International Organization of Securities Commission. So basically, a lot of people are looking to see what Hong Kong is doing.”
- VASPs are lining up to be regulated: “So they launched the virtual assets service provider license in late 2018-19, and there are a number of players that actually lined up for it. And the first successful one was just licensed. We hope to be right behind them in terms of being the second one to be licensed. And what license means is adoption and being able to market to professional investors, it allows institutional players that are regulated around the world to be able to work with us because we will be on an equal footing with them in terms of being licensed. And that’s really, really exciting. So, the big investment banks around the world, the big hedge funds that are licensed, we will be able to work with them.”
- What it takes for a crypto company to get licensed in Hong Kong: “The licensing requirements for a traditional firm is quite normal in terms of resiliency, policies and procedures, internal controls, making sure that you have procedures, onboarding, making sure that you know your client. For people like us in financial services and traditional financial services, it’s quite — I won’t say simple — but it’s the normal path. And I have to say, when I was at the SFC, I wrote those rules to do that…. But for crypto firms that wish to get into this that were unregulated, they’re going to have to rejigger their businesses and actually put in a lot more in terms of internal controls.”
- Where are the women and young people? “We’re going to see a huge lack of qualified people moving into this industry. The average age of financial services is actually moving up and there are not so many young people moving into this industry. This is an area that all governments around the world need to start looking at in terms of educating young women and men and moving girls into STEM and really pushing education and financial education outwards. That’s been a key focus (of the Women’s Foundation) of getting girls equality. We need to move women more into financial services and more into tech. There are very, very few women that are moving into digital assets, moving into this whole area around the world, and that’s one area that we need to really move in.”
Angie Lau: How should a crypto digital assets business think about regulatory risk? How will a retail crypto ban in Hong Kong affect the region? And what will the next fintech opportunities be in Asia and abroad?
Welcome to Word on the Block, the series that takes a deeper dive into Blockchain and the emerging technologies that shape our world at the intersection of business, politics and economy. It’s what we cover right here on Forkast News. I’m Forkast Editor-in-Chief Angie Lau.
Hong Kong’s proposed ban on retail investors from trading cryptocurrencies just wrapped its three-month consultation period. It’s now pending potential legislation later on this year. So, what will happen to existing businesses and investors in Hong Kong? Does it shift the innovation dynamic in Asia? And what does it mean for the aspirations of blockchain and crypto firms like HashKey in Asia?
I want to welcome Angelina Kwan, she’s chief operating officer and chief risk manager of HashKey Group. And Angelina, it is great to welcome you on the show. I’ve been wanting to do this for a while.
Angelina Kwan: Angie, it is really, really good to see you and I’m glad you’re looking fab, as always, and doing amazing things. Thank you very much for today, this is amazing.
Lau: We’re thrilled. This is the first time you’re actually speaking publicly since you started your role at HashKey. I’ve known you for a while. Previous to this, you were the COO of BitMex, and you bring a world of regulatory compliance experience, almost a decade at the Securities and Futures Commission (SFC) of Hong Kong. If I recall, previous to that, you spent a previous decade in the traditional finance and funds compliance industry. So you are well-versed. And on top of that is, if you don’t have enough spare time, you’re doing your master’s in law. I know that you’ve been doing your studying.
Now compliance — this is your neighborhood. This is what you do. How do you bring that expertise to the space that’s needed more now than ever?
Kwan: It’s such an exciting new space, and there are so many opportunities for traditional finance professionals to actually move in and contribute into the crypto digital assets industry. To move this industry into a regulated space, which means adoption by all the giant fund managers and regulated brokers, investment banks, and so on and so forth. This is a natural progression for a very, very new and exciting area. What you’re seeing is all the regulated companies now move into the space.
In the immortal words of our founder at HashKey, Dr. Xiao, regulation is the only way to go and the only way to survive for new assets and emerging assets and adoption. I think this is the way to go and it’s going to be very exciting. And it is already exciting; there are so many players that are moving into the space from traditional as well as original digital assets groups.
Lau: It makes somebody like you with that wealth of experience enormously valuable, and so we’re really happy to have that intellectual expertise here on the show.
Let’s talk about that. You know what’s happening in the industry. You’ve been at the forefront of it over at BitMEX, and now you’re doing that at HashKey. You’re in a part of the world where it is accelerating at enormous speeds. Then you also come from SFC, from that regulatory experience. How is Hong Kong shaping up in terms of how the SFC, how regulators are thinking about it and against the backdrop of what has developed over the past couple of years in Hong Kong with crypto exchanges and investors really excited about new fintech and financial products?
Kwan: The SFC is a forerunner in that Ashley Alder, our CEO at the SFC, is the chairman of IOSCO (International Organization of Securities Commissions). Hong Kong is a leader in terms of whatever it does, it’s going to shape the entire securities industry around the world because he is the chairman of the International Organization of Securities Commission. So basically, a lot of people are looking to see what Hong Kong is doing. So they launched the virtual assets service provider license in late 2018-19, and there are a number of players that actually lined up for it. And the first successful one was just licensed. We hope to be right behind them in terms of being the second one to be licensed. And what license means is adoption and being able to market to professional investors, it allows institutional players that are regulated around the world to be able to work with us because we will be on an equal footing with them in terms of being licensed. And that’s really, really exciting. So, the big investment banks around the world, the big hedge funds that are licensed, we will be able to work with them. We think this is super exciting and this is the biggest growth area.
In terms of how Hong Kong is shaping up, it’s been an amazing melting pot of different firms. And what you’re seeing is adoption in terms of interest by the investing public to look into these areas. You’re seeing regulated products being created by other institutions, and we hope to be able to take part in that space because we’ve got a fund management arm. We’ve got an exchange that we’re about to launch for professional investors. We’ve got trading that we’re going to launch also. So we’ve got something for everybody at Hashkey.
Lau: What are the hurdles that one must go through to get that license for VASP (Virtual Asset Service Providers)?
Kwan: It’s really, really difficult in that the licensing requirements for a traditional firm is quite normal in terms of resiliency, policies and procedures, internal controls, making sure that you have procedures, onboarding, making sure that you know your client. For people like us in financial services and traditional financial services, it’s quite — I won’t say simple — but it’s the normal path. And I have to say, when I was at the SFC, I wrote those rules to do that. We’re just following the rules that I sort of helped write or contribute to. For traditional firms, it’s quite interesting.
But for crypto firms that wish to get into this that were unregulated, they’re going to have to rejigger their businesses and actually put in a lot more in terms of internal controls. They’ll need to put in management and management structures as well as putting in capital. All of those requirements make it interesting and good for investors and protection for investors. You’ve seen some high-profile problems in the space, and I think this is where the regulators are stepping in to actually regulate the space and make it a safer place for investors to invest.
Lau: We’re just thinking about BitMEX as one of those examples. Was this something that you were conscious of while you were there?
Kwan: Well, I was actually at the time brought in to help get them regulated. That was my goal. And they’re now moving towards that area, which is good, actually. And I wish them well, which is good.
Lau: When you talk about the actual authorship at the SFC, you helped write a lot of these rules. What are the principles that you’re trying to protect in the market as you wrote some of these rules, including KYC and all of those internal controls? In terms of the broader industry trying to understand why these regulations were authored specifically like this, what are the principles that you’re trying to protect?
Kwan: The KYC things were already there, and those are the standards that are followed by regulators around the world. But at the time when I was at the SFC, we looked at how do we put a set of standards that exchanges from HKEX to SGX to London Stock Exchange, could actually follow? What were the main areas that exchanges would need to focus on? So, resiliency, procedures, capital, what are their backup plans? What happens if there are outages and things like that?
These were some of the areas that formed what became the automated trading services guidelines, and that has been the backbone of the virtual assets services provider’s license in Hong Kong. It gives a fantastic manual almost to anybody that wishes to get this kind of license. And there are other firms like traditional brokers that have gotten algorithmic trading licenses based on this background also. It’s a way and it’s a path for people to follow to make sure that they are following best practice standards around the world.
I think Hong Kong standards are comparable to New York standards, which are comparable to international standards in Europe and around the world. And that’s what we hope all regulators will adopt — and in fact, they have — to actually work with each other. If you’re in Singapore and you follow the same procedures, then theoretically you could get licensed to Hong Kong, with some regional differences, but basically at least a minimum standard.
Lau: It is those regional differences that really create a divergence here. A lot of local industry insiders fear that this is going to drive fintech talent out of Hong Kong to crypto-friendly regions such as Singapore. Is that something that you are conscious of, that Hong Kong could cede potential dominance or opportunity even?
Kwan: I think Hong Kong has such a special place with the hinterland of China, and I think a lot of opportunity is here. And if we do well, Singapore does well. I think there’s so much sharing and it’s a case in point in terms of the bubble, we have a travel bubble forming between Singapore and Hong Kong. So, yes, crypto players or digital asset players will go to Singapore, but they’ll also try to get licenses in Hong Kong.
So, we’re also pursuing our payments and service licenses in Singapore. So I think it just opens more opportunities in terms of how in Singapore, you work with Southeast Asia, you’d work with Singaporean clients. In Hong Kong, you’d work with Hong Kong clients, as well as Chinese clients, as well as Korea and Japan. And we’re also trying to get licenses in Japan. For virtual asset players, that just opens more and more opportunities. And if each city center does well, each country plays off of it. We have Thailand that also has a digital assets regime that’s also been published and that’s quite exciting. Then you’re seeing developments — you touched upon CBDC (central bank digital currencies) — you’re seeing what’s happening where there are ties between Hong Kong, Saudi Arabia and Thailand to tie up in terms of trade. So countries are drawing closer together.
I won’t say that everybody is going to run off to Singapore, everybody’s going to run off to Hong Kong, but you’re going to see different companies getting different licenses and there are different opportunities opening up.
We have 602 brokers in Hong Kong for professional investors. We have over 2,500 hedge funds here in Hong Kong. We have 250 law firms. We have 200 banks, so there’s no end in terms of professional clients or accredited investors, as you call them, so it’s really quite fine.
Lau: The accredited investors require $1 million dollar U.S. minimum, that’s $8 million Hong Kong dollars. The last report I saw was that’s about half a million people here. So half a million people could potentially get access. But what about all those other retail investors who want to trade crypto and that market is now closed to them?
Kwan: It’s not closed in terms of the license that we’re trying to get, and there are ways and means that people can trade, they can trade through regulated entities that are in the United States. So you’re seeing other United States firms set up in Asia. It’s borderless in terms of our trading. But what our focus is for HashKey is for the professional investor, institutional investor client. And we think that’s an exciting space. And we think that we can help family offices, we can help sophisticated investors manage their funds and dip their toe into digital assets. We think this is a very, very exciting area and we believe there is more than enough business in that area. So we’re focusing on that area first. And as I said, we’re getting licenses in Singapore and we’re also getting licenses in Japan. It’s very, very exciting that we can open those opportunities, too. It’s being aware of what is out there also. But our main focus and our headquarters are in Hong Kong.
Lau: Main focus and headquarters in Hong Kong, with roots in China, obviously the founding team is there. How much of that goes into the forward-thinking at HashKey to be set up in Hong Kong, to effectively work in an international environment? What is the concept or goal, perhaps, of how that can migrate internally into China and potentially grow there as well? Is there a notion of that, Angelina?
Kwan: There is, but there are some constraints in terms of where the regulations are going in China. Our founder, Dr. Xiao Feng, who actually founded Bosera Asset Management, he actually had the foresight to think number one: Regulation is the only way to go. Regulation and being regulated is the only way to survive for all products. And he started his early career as a regulator, also working at a stock exchange, at the Shenzhen stock exchange. He had the foresight to set up this company almost two-plus years ago in Hong Kong, and it was his goal to set up an Asian region powerhouse to build a financial and digital assets group. That’s exactly what we’ve done, and we’re following his blueprint in terms of expanding outwards. What we hope is to be able to set this all up for clients that are coming from China that settle in Hong Kong. We hope to be there to help them with their financial needs. We hope to help international investors. Many of our investments have been actually in Silicon Valley, we were early investors in some of our funds in Silicon Valley. Bringing that choice to international investors and family offices has been a very, very big area.
But our parent group, is so powerful in the area of blockchain. Now, that is very, very clear and that is an aspiring time to be a leader in blockchain. And that’s an area where Wanxiang Blockchain, who is part of our parent company, that just dovetails in terms of the technology and working together with China and coordinating with them. I can only see that there’ll be more growth once we get our licenses, there will be more growth in terms of how we can use what they’re doing in China internationally, and how we can actually bring our expertize out. In the immortal words of Mr. Charles Li, we’re connecting China to the world and the world, to China. I think this is Dr. Xiao’s dream and vision, and we’re trying to achieve that for him.
Lau: Yes. Charles Li, the outgoing Hong Kong exchange chief and now paving the way for a new one. Certainly, it is that bridge that we often talk about, but when we think about just the expanse of the opportunity, I’m curious what you think in HashKey as you take a look at this landscape? DeFi is a huge industry, the accelerant was certainly against the global economic backdrop, but when people can get into the DeFi space, we’re seeing that growth in non-fungible tokens as well. I’m curious how you regard these new fintech financial vehicles that allow the average person, whether you’re accredited or not, to participate. Would there be a road to growth in those areas for you at HashKey? Are you thinking about that, especially with your background as a compliance officer?
Kwan: I find this area fascinating personally. I just read up on it and I try to take part and where some of my friends bring me to these meetings, I try to learn like a sponge as much as possible. In the area of regulation, I think the regulators have not moved in, although I know the U.S. is already looking at DeFi. In terms of our group, our capital entity, which looks at private investments and private equity, they’re already studying the space and I’m sure they’ve already been making investments. I know that the group itself makes investments for itself, so we’re already looking at that area and studying it.
Now, what’s going to happen in terms of the regulatory front, and how they will start looking at it to a regulator? It’s another product. As long as they can form into the product regulations, if some of the DeFi companies do want to eventually get regulated and be able to serve the big funds and hedge funds that are regulated around the world, they’re going to have to start fitting in and looking to meet with regulators around the world. I think you’re going to see these DeFi companies either remain outside of regulation or they will actually submit to regulation. It will be the choice of those companies.
For me personally, I just find it fascinating and if possible, I’d like to learn even more and be a part of that, and I know that our capital group has given me the opportunity to look at some of these investments. I’m studying it right now. It’s very early for the regulators to look at that. As long as they submit to licensing application they can go and get a license.
In Singapore with the Payments and Services Act license it will probably be simpler for those companies to actually move that way first, and then as they grow out and get more customers, they can also submit to other jurisdictions licensing.
Lau: The licensing is critical for growth, obviously, because it allows the traditional and institutional moneys that wouldn’t come in otherwise unless it’s flirting on the side as an independent individual interested in trade. Regulation obviously paves the way. But is there also then divergence of safety that if this space is regulated only for the wealthy, what about everybody else? Are we left to our own accord and caveat emptor?
Kwan: Well, that’s one of the reasons why for me, wherever I can, I try to teach. And I tell housewives, because of my work with the government, I try to teach investor education courses or just go out to whoever will listen to me and tell them, look, if you don’t understand this, do not buy into this industry. It is too nascent. The guardrails may not be there. And it’s the same for stock, too. I mean, if you don’t know the company, don’t invest in it. If you know what you’re getting into, don’t follow on gossip, do your studies. And too many people just listen to gossip and don’t do their own homework. So if you do do your homework and do put in the time, then go ahead. And that’s what the regulator has been saying to everyone in terms of this. Those are the guardrails the government has actually put in terms of Hong Kong that know what you’re getting into. And we have an investor education center that does this to warn people about scams and or other areas. And our enforcement team in the SFC sends out teams to do inspections as well as mystery shopping.
So, for investors, yes, there is choice. And yes, you can go down almost like a rabbit hole, there’s so much information out there. Trying to sift out what is right and what is wrong, I think you have to take the approach that if you’re an institutional investor that’s holding money on behalf of people and investing on behalf of people, you got to do the right thing to protect them. It’s caveat emptor for those investors that want to take this risk because they can go in and deal through a regulated entity and buy products through a regulated entity and get the same exposure. I think that’s where the SFC is coming from in terms of first licensing institutions. So remember, accredited investors are also institutions and they will then look at their clientele to see who can actually purchase. So that’s another area of focus. And then, of course, with this new ETF that’s being mooted, you’re going to also see more retail participation in a licensed and regulated crypto or digital asset ETF.
Lau: Do you envision more and more adoption and more acceptance from institutional investors? We’ve certainly seen the beginning of this avalanche, I predict. With Tesla just not even being the first, MicroStrategy being another, all of these players now coming into this space, do you see more and more of that? Are you hearing the demand? What’s your sense of it?
Kwan: I think the barometer when I sit down at a dinner table with people who are my peers, who work in these big firms, they’re all like ‘Angelina, this bitcoin thing, tell me all about it!’ Three out of four conversations start that way, so if you use the barometer of dinner with friends, everybody wants to learn what is bitcoin, how to trade, what what is it? Is it here to stay? What’s my view on it? I think Bitcoin is here to stay. I went on record and we, meaning HashKey, has gone out on record to publish a white paper called ‘Institutional Investors and Digital Assets.’ So we’ve gone on record to say this is the way to go, this is going to be here. And if you don’t invest in this asset as an institutional investor, you’re missing out. And yes, it’s very volatile as all new investments are volatile. I think people forget about hedge funds. When I was at the SFC, hedge funds, which just debuting, and everyone’s like ‘oh my God, hedge funds are going to eat our children and they’re so evil. Oh, my God!’ And guess what? They’re part of the furniture now. And they’re our biggest institutional investors now. They’re regulated and making money and doing great. So it’s an understanding, it’s adoption and people getting to understand this will lead to overall adoption.
Lau: Yeah, I mean, what’s happening in Asia is so fascinating and what we’re watching happening in this part of the world that sometimes the rest of the globe doesn’t have visibility on, it is really mind-blowing. I’m curious, Angelina, what are you monitoring here in Asia that you think the rest of the world should be conscious of as well?
Kwan: I’m monitoring trends and I’m monitoring that schools really need to ramp up their education in terms of STEM and tech and with birth levels going down, I think we’re going to see a huge lack of qualified people moving into this industry. The average age of financial services is actually moving up and there are not so many young people moving into this industry. This is an area that all governments around the world need to start looking at in terms of educating young women and men and moving girls into STEM and really pushing education and financial education outwards. This is a big area, and as you are aware, as a part of the women’s foundation, that’s been a key focus of getting girls equality. We need to move women more into financial services and more into tech. There are very, very few women that are moving into digital assets, moving into this whole area around the world, and that’s one area that we need to really move in.
The other area that I would think globally we need to focus on is more clarity in terms of rules and regulations. Countries need to work together and IOSCO is already working together. What used to be discussed in hallways is now being discussed in plenary sessions among governments, and there needs to be a lot more tie-up in terms of rulemaking as well as enforcement. Covid has really just put a damper on that. I think governments around the world need to work together and I’m so excited to see the CBDC, also excited to see that China is launching that in China and they’re already testing the CBDC. So this is a way for direct trade, direct payments to be made and the costs hopefully will go down eventually, hopefully, for the end-users. If you look at digital assets, the transfer of assets is cents on the dollar. And when you go to a traditional organization to do your electronic trade transfer, it’s two hundred dollars Hong Kong. So if there’s more adoption in this, it will be good for investors. It will be good for common people, be good for trade.
Lau: That is true. It always strikes me that in the age of technology that I would still have to pay or really anybody would still have to pay 10, 20 up to 50 U.S. dollars for global transfers. That’s a lot of money.
Kwan: Yeah, it’s a lot. Human capital, money, excitement. My three buzzwords.
Lau: That’s awesome. It’s why this industry continues to move forward at a pace faster than anyone can believe you, you nailed it. Thank you, Angelina.
Kwan: Thank you so much.
Lau: Thank you, everyone, for joining us on this latest episode of Word on the Block. I’m Forkast.News, Editor-in-Chief Angie Lau. Until the next time.